Naomi Klein & Avi Lewis: Confronting High-Tech Dystopia and Forging a Green New Deal Amidst the COVID-19 Crisis

This podcast episode features Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis discussing the profound societal shifts and dangers emerging from the COVID-19 pandemic, framed through Klein's concept of "disaster capitalism." They argue that the crisis is being exploited by corporate predators, particularly in the tech and fossil fuel sectors, to push a "dark future" characterized by deregulation, public sphere starvation, and a "Screen New Deal." This Screen New Deal envisions a world of pervasive surveillance, exploited gig work, remote everything, and automated services, repackaged as solutions for a "no-touch future" where humans are seen as biohazards. Figures like Eric Schmidt and Jeff Bezos are actively promoting this vision, using the pandemic to overcome prior democratic resistance and ethical concerns.

Avi Lewis counters this dystopian outlook by highlighting the unprecedented "cracks of possibility" that have emerged. He points to the pre-pandemic momentum for a Green New Deal and the scientific consensus from the IPCC that rapid, transformative changes are necessary to address the climate crisis. The massive public spending in response to COVID-19 (trillions in the US, billions in Canada) has, according to Lewis, exploded the myth of fiscal austerity, demonstrating that rich industrialized countries possess immense capacity to spend to save lives and rebuild economies. This newfound understanding of public spending capacity opens the "Overton window" for previously radical demands like universal housing, public education, and comprehensive healthcare.

The discussion also delves into critical distinctions between the 2008 financial crisis and the current pandemic. Unlike 2008, where mass movements largely said "no" to austerity without a clear alternative plan, there is now a growing movement for a "people's bailout" and a "global Green New Deal." Klein emphasizes that "no is not enough" and that a comprehensive, ecological, and economic pathway out of crisis is essential. Lewis further critiques the neoliberal doctrine of "competitive advantage," arguing that globalized supply chains, particularly for essential goods like PPE, have proven vulnerable and inefficient, advocating for shorter, localized supply chains and domestic manufacturing capacity.

The broader implications include the erosion of democratic control by powerful corporate interests, the need for international cooperation to address global crises like climate change and pandemics, and the challenge of coordinating responses across nation-states while confronting the "commodification of social design." They stress that while the biggest crises require collective action, past multilateral efforts like the Paris Accord were insufficient due to a lack of enforcement and ambition. The speakers advocate for "international cooperation from below" and leveraging the shared experience of the pandemic to foster receptivity to diverse, more effective national and local solutions, ultimately aiming to dismantle the pillars of the neoliberal age and build a more resilient, equitable future.

"I have unfortunately been dragged back into shock doctrine disaster capitalism territory."

"diagnosing the extraordinary profitability of crisis for the masters of the universe is even more important now than it was then."

"the plan that i am even more worried about and that is related to this plan because of that starving of the public sphere is what I'm calling the screen new deal."

"this is now being repackaged as a way to keep ourselves safe in the midst of the pandemic or a no-touch future which sees humans as a biohazard."

"they see the pandemic as their way of overcoming democracy and resistance that they were encountering before."

"we are in an unprecedented moment of both peril and promise."

"the only way we can keep temperatures to a safe level... would require rapid and unprecedented changes in every aspect of society."

"nobody can deny that anymore so if we can spend unprecedented money... we can absolutely guarantee shelter for people who need to shelter in place homes for all."

"what this crisis is showing every country on earth is that china producing the vast majority of personal protective equipment on planet earth is an incredibly vulnerable inefficient system."

"this crisis is actually giving us an opportunity to pull down the pillars of the neo-liberal age."

"what we didn't have in those key years was our own plan for how to get out of crisis."

"the much celebrated paris accord... what that deal represented was the biggest polluters coming together and agreeing to keep polluting."