Beyond Perpetual Growth: Reimagining Economics and Human Potential After Capitalism

This podcast episode features Rob Johnson of the Institute for New Economic Thinking in conversation with Tim Jackson, author of "Post Growth: Life After Capitalism" and "Prosperity Without Growth." Jackson discusses the core message of his new book, which critiques the inherent dysfunctionality of capitalism, particularly its relentless pursuit of continuous expansion on a finite planet. He highlights how his earlier policy-focused work, "Prosperity Without Growth," found a more receptive audience among the general public than among policymakers, leading him to write "Post Growth" for a wider, more accessible readership, integrating his academic insights with his playwriting background to bring a 'heart-minded' perspective to the discussion.

The conversation delves into the limitations of the dominant economic paradigm, which has narrowly focused on a "novelty and self" quadrant of human values, neglecting the importance of 'other' and 'tradition' as explored by psychologist Shalom Schwartz. Jackson argues that this materialistic vision of a consumer society has come at the detriment of the human spirit and our fullest potential. He posits that societal limits, rather than being constraints, should be viewed as invitations to deeper meaning and purpose, a concept echoed by Wendell Berry. The pandemic, he notes, starkly exposed the undervaluation of essential workers in the 'care economy'—doctors, nurses, cleaners, delivery people—whose dedication and time-intensive work are not easily quantified or rewarded by a system obsessed with productivity and efficiency.

Jackson emphasizes the urgent need for economic reform that re-centers the value of care, craft, and creativity, placing these human-centric contributions at the heart of the economy. He draws parallels between the pandemic's suffering and shamanic journeys, suggesting that such disruptions can lead to re-examination and a more sensitive vision for society. The discussion also explores the modern societal discomfort with suffering, contrasting capitalism's competitive response to scarcity with Buddhism's emphasis on reducing cravings and increasing compassion for others. He cites figures like Jeff Bezos, whose "Day One" philosophy, while inspiring, also betrays an underlying anxiety of decline and death.

Ultimately, the episode advocates for a shift away from a materialistic worldview that undermines human potential and destroys the planet. It calls for drawing wisdom from ancient traditions, such as Native American spiritual philosophy and the teachings of Lao Tzu and Thich Nhat Hanh, to foster a collective, lifelong learning path towards social progress, planetary care, and intrinsic well-being. The concept of 'sangha' or community is highlighted as crucial for overcoming fear and fostering collaboration in addressing global challenges like climate change, moving beyond an individualistic, 'go it alone' mentality.

"there's also a very profound message for a dysfunctionality at the heart of capitalism that has that has done damage to some of the most important valuable members of our community and to the services that they bring to us"

"the predicament if you like of of of our economy which has as its goal continuous expansion and yet lives and has to survive on a finite planet"

"we had almost forced in economics in particular forced our vision of ourselves into that one novelty seeking selfish quadrant of the human heart and in doing so had had missed actually you know three three-quarters of who we are as human beings"

"we've pursued this very materialistic vision of a consumer society to the detriment of the human spirit"

"it's the fact that we're limited that points us in the direction of that human potential"

"the limits properly construed should not be seen as constraints but as invitations to fuller meaning and purpose"

"this set of people turned out to be the people that we needed most they were the doctors and the nurses and the care workers and the delivery people and the people working in shops to provide for us"

"the reform that economics needs at this point is fundamentally to replace to put that value the value of the carers the care economy if you like and craft and creativity those those occupations that depend for their their effectiveness on the dedication of people's time to society to put them back at the heart of the economy where they belong"

"Day two is starsis followed by irrelevance followed by a slow inexorable decline followed by death and that is why it's always day one"

"our materialistic societies in the same time that they're you know destroying the planet they are actually undermining our own ability to achieve our fullest human potential"

"capitalism kind of says you know because everything is is suffering everything is a struggle life is a struggle for existence and it's only through competition that you can survive that struggle for existence"

"buddhism goes a completely opposite direction it says you know everything is suffering the suffering comes from our cravings and therefore we should reduce our cravings and always increase our concern for other people particularly those who are suffering"